Colby Pit Bulls (standards and the original look)

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Alot of people are confused about what pits should look like so i decided to post the American Dog Breeders Association standards which go by the "old" or original pit bulls. And here is a picture of Colby Pit Bulls one of the best pit bull lines. they were the one of the first "modern" pit bull breeders. Colby dogs have been bred since 1889. His dog Horners Luger was the first Staffordshire terrier champion of canada. Their line has not changed much in the last 100 years. "to own a pure colby dog is to own a peice of history." they are one of the purest pit lines Since he does not advertise.
Standard-
General Appearance
The American Pit Bull Terrier is a medium-sized, solidly built, short-coated dog with smooth, well-defined musculature. This breed is both powerful and athletic. The body is just slightly longer than tall, but bitches may be somewhat longer in body than dogs. The length of the front leg (measured from point of elbow to the ground) is approximately equal to one-half of the dog's height at the withers. The head is of medium length, with a broad, flat skull, and a wide, deep muzzle. Ears are small to medium in size, high set, and may be natural or cropped. The relatively short tail is set low, thick at the base and tapers to a point. The American Pit Bull Terrier comes in all colors and color patterns. This breed combines strength and athleticism with grace and agility and should never appear bulky or muscle-bound or fine-boned and rangy.
Characteristics
The essential characteristics of the American Pit Bull Terrier are strength, confidence, and zest for life. This breed is eager to please and brimming over with enthusiasm. APBTs make excellent family companions and have always been noted for their love of children. Because most APBTs exhibit some level of dog aggression and because of its powerful physique, the APBT requires an owner who will carefully socialize and obedience train the dog. The breed's natural agility makes it one of the most capable canine climbers so good fencing is a must for this breed. The APBT is not the best choice for a guard dog since they are extremely friendly, even with strangers. Aggressive behavior toward humans is uncharacteristic of the breed and highly undesirable. This breed does very well in performance events because of its high level of intelligence and its willingness to work.
Head
The APBT head is unique and a key element of breed type. It is large and broad, giving the impression of great power, but it is not disproportionate to the size of the body. Viewed from the front, the head is shaped like a broad, blunt wedge. When viewed from the side, the skull and muzzle are parallel to one another and joined by a well defined, moderately deep stop. Supraorbital arches over the eyes are well defined but not pronounced. The head is well chiseled, blending strength, elegance, and character.
of evenly spaced, white teeth meeting in a scissors bite. Fault: Level bite.
height and weight
The American Pit Bull Terrier must be both powerful and agile so actual weight and height are less important than the correct proportion of weight to height. Desirable weight for a mature male in good condition is between 35 and 60 pounds. Desirable weight for a mature female in good condition is between 30 and 50 pounds. Dogs over these weights are not to be penalized unless they are disproportionately massive or rangy.
i did edit this so if you want to read the whole thing heres the linkhttp://www.pitbulllovers.com/american-pit-bull-terrier-breed-standard.html
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Thanks, that was informative :).
~Tucker
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im bout to enter pics just trying to get compy to work :D
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males- http://codakennels.tripod.com/id27.html
females-http://codakennels.tripod.com/id23.html
this is also where im going to try and get my next pit :D
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males- http://codakennels.tripod.com/id27.html
females-http://codakennels.tripod.com/id23.html
this is also where im going to try and get my next pit :D
really not very impressive. i certainly wouldn't buy a dog from them. what's so great about them other than they come out of colby dogs? not all colby dogs were or are worth breeding. nothing indicates that these dogs have been shown, health tested, or worked in any way. with the huge glut of below-par pit bulls in the world, only the proven best should be bred.
i love the look of matrix dogs (http://www.matrixkennels.com). if i were going to buy a pit bull, they'd be a the very top of my list.
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I'd have to agree with elegy, at least partially. What breeder would sell "a pair for breeding purposes to someone interested in becoming a breeder"??? I could be wrong, but I thought that was frowned upon. What's to say the "breeding pair" won't end up breeding with another dog or having so many litters it's unhealthy? Or that the pair will even go to a good home? I also thought most breeders offered a 1 or 2 year health guarantee, and one with more specifics listed?
Obviously the guy does advertise, even if it's just online, otherwise he wouldn't be able to sell his pups.
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im bout to enter pics just trying to get compy to work :D
Its nice to see a breeder who doesnt breed for massive size. They have a male that they are not going to breed because he is too large at 80 pounds. I would make sure that they do health testing.
EDIT: I just noticed this paragraph on their web site...
The bloodlines we used to produce our strain were COLBY, GAFF, LARUM, MASON (Ch. Hog), RUFFIAN, SIERRA, WATCHDOG and YORK.
I know that GAFF and WATCHDOG lines are very poor, because they mix in mastiff blood. I dont think I would ever want to buy from them either...
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really not very impressive. i certainly wouldn't buy a dog from them. what's so great about them other than they come out of colby dogs? not all colby dogs were or are worth breeding. nothing indicates that these dogs have been shown, health tested, or worked in any way. with the huge glut of below-par pit bulls in the world, only the proven best should be bred.
i love the look of matrix dogs (http://www.matrixkennels.com). if i were going to buy a pit bull, they'd be a the very top of my list.
Wow, look at this dog from matrix kennels. Very athletic and fast looking. So beautiful!! Now that is a real pitbull! What bloodlines do they use??
http://img171.imageshack.us/img171/4992/satisidestudy2851nw.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
http://img171.imageshack.us/img171/862/sati0751jv.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
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i wil prolly get one from them because they have the kind i like and im not worried about showing and they do do all the testing and everything i called them last year for a dog. and hes not J. Colby who is the guy who did not advertise you had to contact him if you wanted one of his dogs. i couldnt find any of L. colbys(J. colbys relative that is running it now) dogs tht i could use.
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That female looks skinny to me.. but what do I know....:rolleyes:
I know that most "street pitts" nowa days are overweight and too stocky but that dog looks malnourished.
Their other female "Lilly" looks much better. Muscular but not bulky.
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Originally Posted by darkchild16
males- http://codakennels.tripod.com/id27.html
females-http://codakennels.tripod.com/id23.html
this is also where im going to try and get my next pit
I dont know anything about pit lines but any breeder who advertises breeding pairs on their website for anyone to buy is NOT a breeder I would be getting from.
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That female looks skinny to me.. but what do I know....:rolleyes:
I know that most "street pitts" nowa days are overweight and too stocky but that dog looks malnourished.
Their other female "Lilly" looks much better. Muscular but not bulky.
There are alot of breeds that are naturaly slim. It gives them speed, and pits are supposed to be quick on their feet. I can tell you this much... that dog wouldnt have any muscle tone if she was malnourished, but she is ripped. I have seen very few pits in that good of shape.
People are so used to seeing over sized dogs in general that they have no idea what a dog in excellent shape looks like, and its sad.
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i love the small one the giant ones arent how they originally look or how they should look.
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Well seeing as the dog is only 7 months old that would explain why it's so skinny. I seriously doubt that it will be that small in a year or two...
Lilly the (CH) female, is much more filled out. She doesn't seem overweight or larger than a pitt should be. Hence her CH.
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That pit you posted Rottie, is way to skinny for a pitbull. A pitbull is supposed to be somewhat stocky, not all skin and bones. I agree that the pit bull size has been exxagerated to the maximum, but that pit is not one I would want. IMO, the ones the OP posted look very well balanced for a pit bull, but I would not get one from them because their ethics do not agree with mine, but that is the way I prefer pits to look.
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That pit you posted Rottie, is way to skinny for a pitbull. A pitbull is supposed to be somewhat stocky, not all skin and bones. I agree that the pit bull size has been exxagerated to the maximum, but that pit is not one I would want. IMO, the ones the OP posted look very well balanced for a pit bull, but I would not get one from them because their ethics do not agree with mine, but that is the way I prefer pits to look.
That dog is not skin and bones. Take a look at the early pits. I really do not think that dog is too skinny. She is perfect with a nice tuck, and very toned. Skin is tight fitting. I have seen what pits are supposed to look like. Of course she will fill out a little, because she is young, but she will still be thin. She looks amazing for her age.
Take a look at this forum. Its members are very knowledgeable with the breed... http://www.game-dog.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=36
Here are some early pits. Some of them are fighting champions, but I just wanted to show you how the early ORIGINAL ones looked before people started ruining the breed. You can see that they have a small "waist" and well sprung ribs. Most pits now days dont have a tuck at all.
http://img335.imageshack.us/img335/235/angus7ib.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
http://img257.imageshack.us/img257/3185/chinaman0za.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
http://img257.imageshack.us/img257/430/outlaw5pw.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
http://img437.imageshack.us/img437/3805/reddman14fz.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
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I know many pits, and standards do change. Many dogs dont look like they were intended to, and I prefer the look of the OP link. Maybe they were SUPPOSED to look all skinny in the past but things change, and IMO the first ones look great. Well balanced and muscular.
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That pit you posted Rottie, is way to skinny for a pitbull. A pitbull is supposed to be somewhat stocky, not all skin and bones. I agree that the pit bull size has been exxagerated to the maximum, but that pit is not one I would want. IMO, the ones the OP posted look very well balanced for a pit bull, but I would not get one from them because their ethics do not agree with mine, but that is the way I prefer pits to look.
Not true. The standard pitbull will be found in the "game lines" more so then for instance, Gaff or RE.
Jeep is a good line.
That dog posted IS close, if not, to standard.
I personally am not a fan of the look, my pits are short and stocky, but if I were a serious competetor, Id definalty go with a Matrix dog.
Scott has many champion dogs and is so dedicated to the breed it makes the rest of us looks like chumps!
But good luck if you try to aquire a dog from him, he screens, screens, and more screens. He is a true hero to the breed.
www.apbtconformation is a wonderful informative site.Everything need to be known, is on this site.
Owned and operated by Scott Dowd of Matrix Kennels.
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That dog is not skin and bones. Take a look at the early pits. I really do not think that dog is too skinny. She is perfect with a nice tuck, and very toned. Skin is tight fitting. I have seen what pits are supposed to look like. Of course she will fill out a little, because she is young, but she will still be thin. She looks amazing for her age.
Take a look at this forum. Its members are very knowledgeable with the breed... http://www.game-dog.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=36
Here are some early pits. Some of them are fighting champions, but I just wanted to show you how the early ORIGINAL ones looked before people started ruining the breed. You can see that they have a small "waist" and well sprung ribs. Most pits now days dont have a tuck at all.
http://img335.imageshack.us/img335/235/angus7ib.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
http://img257.imageshack.us/img257/3185/chinaman0za.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
http://img257.imageshack.us/img257/430/outlaw5pw.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
http://img437.imageshack.us/img437/3805/reddman14fz.jpg (http://imageshack.us)Thats a true pitbull!Kudos.
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I know many pits, and standards do change. Many dogs dont look like they were intended to, and I prefer the look of the OP link. Maybe they were SUPPOSED to look all skinny in the past but things change, and IMO the first ones look great. Well balanced and muscular.
But the standard has not changed. Just because a short, stocky, brick house enters a UKC show, and wins, doesnt mean that the standard has changed, it just means he was the best of what happened to show up that day, is all.........
You enter a standard, well toned, muscled up "game type" pitbull, and he will win every time.
Standard has not changed, society has changed the breed. Anything luckily left over from standard lines, is a lucky dog.
Like I said, I do not prefer them personally~s a dog of my own, but would always respect it if it competed against my dog and won.
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it's fascinating to me the people who show adba and ukc. they have to fatten their dogs up to show in ukc or they won't do well, period. that's a shame. the adba-style of dogs- extremely fit and muscular- is really, at least to me, what the pit bull breed is all about.
to the OP- what the heck kind of testing are they doing on those dogs? they aren't listed in the OFA database at all. pit bulls are prone to hip dypslasia, elbow dysplasia, and heart disease for starters. the only claim to fame of any of those dogs is that they can scale a six foot fence. that's no reason to breed a dog.
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Like I said, I do not prefer them personally~s a dog of my own, but would always respect it if it competed against my dog and won.
So you dont have to like them and can choose the more muscular, well balanced one but I can't. A pit isnt supposed to look like a whippet.
ELEGY: No one said anything about fat, MUSCULAR.
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Maybe there should be decisive split between the AmStaff and the APBT so that those who want the stockier looking dogs could work with AmStaffs and the APBT could keep the look it originally had. It's a shame to change a breed's shape so much especially since we have a lot of pictures of what they originally looked like.
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ah, but truly muscular and conditioned often won't win in the ukc ring. a pit bull shouldn't look like a whippet, no, but they are supposed to be an athletic dog, not a bulky one.
from the adba standard: Above all, the American Pit Bull Terrier should appear to be an all around athlete. His body is called upon for speed, power, agility and stamina. He must be balanced in all directions. Too much of one thing, robs him of another. In his ideal form, he is a thing of beauty.
Presentation of an adult dog should be of a lean, exercised animal showing a hint of rib and backbone (without hipbones showing) with muscles firm and defined. Clean, glossy coat with short trimmed nails. Presentation of dogs in the puppy classes should be of a well nourished puppy, showing no ribs, backbone or hips. Coat should be glossy with short, trimed nails.
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i also dont see anything too special about the first dogs posted...
but i LOVE the Matrix and Jeep lines..WOW!...the pit girly in the pic posted is gorgeous! Now THAT is what a pit bull is suppose to look like! Shes not at all skinny, she could use a bit more muscle tone, but shes still young! She is very well conditioned for her age...a lot of people dont like the look of a game bred pit bull..but that is what they are supposed to look like, they were bred to look like..it makes me sick to see all these 120lb blue hippo mastiff crosses dogs out there, and what makes it all worse is that these "breeders" argue that they are true pit bulls..im sure most of you have seen this but if not take a look..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c9nnF1AeY6A&search=the%20real%20pit%20bull
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I'm not sure if a 7 month old puppy should be that muscular and toned. It's not good for them to be fat but their growing... you don't want to mess with muscle/ligament/joing growth.
All of their dogs are attractive but I don't like the particular pup posted on this thread.
On the matrix website I don't see any dogs that are skinny or NOT muscular. (Of course the ones that are older and filled out) Their pitts look to be in good condition. There's a good mix of stocky and more athletic looking pitts in my town.
It is personal preference.
Just a question though, and this is not sarcastic.
If pitts aren't supposed to be thick and stocky why do they win in confirmation shows? You'd think of all people who should know what a pitt is supposed to look like a judge would know.
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Wow, look at this dog from matrix kennels. Very athletic and fast looking. So beautiful!! Now that is a real pitbull! What bloodlines do they use??
http://img171.imageshack.us/img171/4992/satisidestudy2851nw.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
http://img171.imageshack.us/img171/862/sati0751jv.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
I'm not a fan of short, chunky pit bulls....in fact, I can't stand that look....but that dog is just a little too thin for my liking. I like to see lean pits, but not that lean IMO.
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I don't know much about pits, but I think that dog looks ok. Doesn't look malnourished to me. She's slim, but still appears healthy, IMO.
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That female is gorgeous! :D Maybe a little more 'sighthound' like than I thought pitties should look, but a very good looking girl nonetheless. :)
I know nothing about APBTs but I have to say I like the leaner, more athletic dogs over the really chunky ones I've seen. And the giant sized ones some people seem to think should be bred...oh good lord, no. lol
Cass.
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ah, but truly muscular and conditioned often won't win in the ukc ring. a pit bull shouldn't look like a whippet, no, but they are supposed to be an athletic dog, not a bulky one.
from the adba standard: Above all, the American Pit Bull Terrier should appear to be an all around athlete. His body is called upon for speed, power, agility and stamina. He must be balanced in all directions. Too much of one thing, robs him of another. In his ideal form, he is a thing of beauty.
Presentation of an adult dog should be of a lean, exercised animal showing a hint of rib and backbone (without hipbones showing) with muscles firm and defined. Clean, glossy coat with short trimmed nails. Presentation of dogs in the puppy classes should be of a well nourished puppy, showing no ribs, backbone or hips. Coat should be glossy with short, trimed nails.
Good post!
I want to throw in something... just because you can slightly see a pits ribs doesnt mean that he is malnourished. You are supposed to see their ribs to an extent. If you look at the female I posted you dont see any rib, so she is obviously well fed!
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The skinny"whippit"style dogs ARE winning UKC competitions IF they are in the running against the short stockier ones~AS long as there are no faults in the skinnier toned dog. For example, you enter 20 short stocky pits, and one Jeep dog, and the Jeep will walk away a winner every time verses the others, however, if the Jeep dog has an over bite, undershot, floating eye, turn in the vertebre, or a bald spot, no, it will not win, the next healthiest toned dog will.
They are winning.
Matrix dogs, I beleive are on a raw diet as well, this keeps them lean. They are also worked very hard.Always winning competition. The site is full of bragging rights, and they have earned them.
Each dog is different, like us. You can take 5 dogs, all the same size, and feed them the same, comdition them the same, but they will all turn out slightly different. The "skinny" dog, happens to have a heck of a tuck, prolly natural.
This is why you investigate hard before buying, you get what you want if you take the time. And study.
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I'm not sure if a 7 month old puppy should be that muscular and toned. It's not good for them to be fat but their growing... you don't want to mess with muscle/ligament/joing growth.
All of their dogs are attractive but I don't like the particular pup posted on this thread.
On the matrix website I don't see any dogs that are skinny or NOT muscular. (Of course the ones that are older and filled out) Their pitts look to be in good condition. There's a good mix of stocky and more athletic looking pitts in my town.
It is personal preference.
Just a question though, and this is not sarcastic.
If pitts aren't supposed to be thick and stocky why do they win in confirmation shows? You'd think of all people who should know what a pitt is supposed to look like a judge would know.
Its all about MONEY.
About real pit bulls... if you dont like an athletic looking, slim, muscular dog, then get a different breed.
I understand that some people like thicker looking pit bulls, and thats ok as long as you dont go too far with it. Pits can be up to 70 pounds, and anything over that is ridiculous in my opinion. I like ones in the 40-55 pound range, others like them in the 60-70 range. Either way... at any weight, they should look very athletic.
A well conditioned dog looks COMPLETELY different than if they were 5 pounds over-weight. A dog could come from a great working bloodline and he could look horrible and fat if not conditioned at all.
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First of all I could care less about who wins what. Georgy, that is true. Amstaffs are way stockier than an APBT. Yes, the dog Rottie posted is decent but I would like a little more muscle to them. They still have a tuck, but their legs and chest are more muscular. Like Doberman muscle not Rottie muscle (dont ask where I got that from). Rotties muscles are hidden by bulk whereas the Doberman musles is refined and tones. I just prefer a little more toned muscle.
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There is this ABPT at work boarding (she's practically always there, what a life :rolleyes: , but anyways) and IMO she is a wonderfully balanced toned pit. She is exacty the image i am trying to portray. I'll see if I can get a picture of her tomorrow.
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About real pit bulls... if you dont like an athletic looking, slim, muscular dog, then get a different breed
I love slim muscular athletic dogs, hence the fact I have a Doberman, a dog that fits that exact criteria. I just prefer my dogs not to look anorexic.
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Did you look at the other dogs at Matrix GSDlover? They aren't that skinny, I think that pup was just young. They had some great pics of weight pulling too.
http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a2/jakemp/skippydooda.jpg
http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a2/jakemp/morphpullingsmall.jpg
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Wow, I think that girl is gorgeous!
I DEFINATELY prefer the leaner, smaller pit bulls, though still with lots of muscle!
~Tucker
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GeorgyGirl Agreed. The pup in the pic is only 7 months old. None of their other dogs that are older and filled out look like that.
As for weight of a pitt. I don't think weight matters as long as their not obviously overweight and porportionate. My little guy weighs almost 60 lbs. He is not overweight. And he doesn't look to be 60 lbs. It's just the way he's built. IMO he doesn't look anything like a street pitt, he's actually quite slim looking.
Rottiegirl - Do you mean money as in people with money win? Or money as in the reason they breed big pitts is for money?
I understand that pitts are supposed to be athletic and the dogs on the site look very athletic. I just find it to be a very undesirable look for a 7 month old baby. Babies look lanky and not put together for a reason, their still growing...
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Did you look at the other dogs at Matrix GSDlover? They aren't that skinny, I think that pup was just young. They had some great pics of weight pulling too.
Yes, I realize the puppy is too young but Rottie said she was a great example of a pit bull. A puppy (at that young age), IMO is never a great example of any breed, I was just making a point.
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Okay, I'm sorry. I misunderstood.:)
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Yes, I realize the puppy is too young but Rottie said she was a great example of a pit bull. A puppy (at that young age), IMO is never a great example of any breed, I was just making a point.
She looks amazing FOR HER AGE. With a well conditioned dog you see ribs, back bone, muscle, tight skin, and a very nice tuck. The more a pit is conditioned, the more of a tuck he will develope.... a small waist.
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First of all I could care less about who wins what. Georgy, that is true. Amstaffs are way stockier than an APBT. Yes, the dog Rottie posted is decent but I would like a little more muscle to them. They still have a tuck, but their legs and chest are more muscular. Like Doberman muscle not Rottie muscle (dont ask where I got that from). Rotties muscles are hidden by bulk whereas the Doberman musles is refined and tones. I just prefer a little more toned muscle.
A rotties muscles are hidden because their fur is way longer than a pits or a dobes fur.
The female I posted didnt have tons of muscles because she is still a puppy. If she was conditioned to the max, you would see her ribs and back bone. You think she looks "anorexic" because she has a defined tuck, well... pits are supposed to have just that. Like I said before... the more conditioned... the more of a tuck they will get.
Are you saying she needs more muscle or more fat or both? If she had more muscle, I think you would still feel that she looks malnourished.
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Did you look at the other dogs at Matrix GSDlover? They aren't that skinny, I think that pup was just young. They had some great pics of weight pulling too.
http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a2/jakemp/skippydooda.jpg
http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a2/jakemp/morphpullingsmall.jpg
The dog on the bottom looks very good. The dog on the top could be conditioned more. Why? Because his ribs dont show and his tuck is weak. He looks very nice though!
just my opinions.
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She looks amazing FOR HER AGE. With a well conditioned dog you see ribs, back bone, muscle, tight skin, and a very nice tuck. The more a pit is conditioned, the more of a tuck he will develope.... a small waist.
Exactly!!!
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A rotties muscles are hidden because their fur is way longer than a pits or a dobes fur.
A rotties muscle is no where near as defined as a dobie or APBT. They are powerful but do not have a chiseled look. Fur or not, they are built differently. And IMO an fit Dobie and aan ABPT are more compatible to be compared than a rottie. The dobie and APBT are two TOTALLY different dogs but both do have the athletic, defined look.
The female I posted didnt have tons of muscles because she is still a puppy. If she was conditioned to the max, you would see her ribs and back bone. You think she looks "anorexic" because she has a defined tuck, well... pits are supposed to have just that. Like I said before... the more conditioned... the more of a tuck they will get.
Because she is a puppy, that was the point I was trying to make. You said she was a great example of an APBT when in reality wasnt. A full grown ABPT should not look like that, and I would hope that they would be more muscular that that dog. And on top of that her back was hunched like a whippet.
Are you saying she needs more muscle or more fat or both? If she had more muscle, I think you would still feel that she looks malnourished.
Muscle... I dont like any excess fat on my dogs. If you look at my Dobie you would see nothing more than pure defined muscle. If you look beneath all my GSD's fur you would not see nothing more than muscle. I dont want flab, I want to see a little more firm muscle. NOT FAT!!!
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A rotties muscle is no where near as defined as a dobie or APBT. They are powerful but do not have a chiseled look. Fur or not, they are built differently. And IMO an fit Dobie and aan ABPT are more compatible to be compared than a rottie. The dobie and APBT are two TOTALLY different dogs but both do have the athletic, defined look.
Because she is a puppy, that was the point I was trying to make. You said she was a great example of an APBT when in reality wasnt. A full grown ABPT should not look like that, and I would hope that they would be more muscular that that dog. And on top of that her back was hunched like a whippet.
Muscle... I dont like any excess fat on my dogs. If you look at my Dobie you would see nothing more than pure defined muscle. If you look beneath all my GSD's fur you would not see nothing more than muscle. I dont want flab, I want to see a little more firm muscle. NOT FAT!!!
Rotties are heavier, stockier dogs than pits and dobes. Rottweiler is a molosser breed. Too many rotties are fat and thats the problem. I think muscles grow the same in all breeds.
That female doesnt have a "hunched" back. The topline inclines very slightly downward from the withers. The loin is short, muscular and slightly arched to the top of the croup, but narrower than the rib cage and with a moderate tuck-up. The croup is slightly sloping downward. That is what a pit bulls back is supposed to look like. You should read the standard.
That female was muscular for her age. Shes perfect.
I would love to see pics of your dobe. Its one of my favorite breeds.
Ok, here are some adult champions from matrix kennels. The most well conditioned dogs that they have, in my opinion. The last dog is not a champ yet. The second dog is my fave and looks to be the most conditioned (pic 2 and 3 are the same dog).
http://img239.imageshack.us/img239/1716/trinityb4adbasmall2cz.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
http://img239.imageshack.us/img239/5032/prettypp6wh.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
http://img60.imageshack.us/img60/2535/00persephone25yd.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
http://img103.imageshack.us/img103/7752/coderstack11xl.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
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www.pitbullsoforegon.com (http://www.pitbullsoforegon.com)

To those who say that what wins in the ring is muscular.. That was one of the first results I got when I searched for UKC pits. Look at the condition of those dogs vs. the working dogs. You can't tell me that those dogs are just muscular, they're fat. Not obese, but they have definitely been fattened up.
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http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a2/jakemp/morphpullingsmall.jpg
i love this dog, very nice looking boy
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A rotties muscle is no where near as defined as a dobie or APBT. They are powerful but do not have a chiseled look. Fur or not, they are built differently. And IMO an fit Dobie and aan ABPT are more compatible to be compared than a rottie. The dobie and APBT are two TOTALLY different dogs but both do have the athletic, defined look.
Because she is a puppy, that was the point I was trying to make. You said she was a great example of an APBT when in reality wasnt. A full grown ABPT should not look like that, and I would hope that they would be more muscular that that dog. And on top of that her back was hunched like a whippet.
Muscle... I dont like any excess fat on my dogs. If you look at my Dobie you would see nothing more than pure defined muscle. If you look beneath all my GSD's fur you would not see nothing more than muscle. I dont want flab, I want to see a little more firm muscle. NOT FAT!!!
Hunched like a whippet????Lol, far from it.
Please read the standard, obviously, you are seeing something completly different then what is there. Not sure if it is just because you do not know what to look for, or because I sense a hint of dislike from you for the breed. I may be wrong(probably~so dont go screaming at me!) but the dog is gorgeous, no obvious faults what so ever!
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Hi,to go back to this what APBT's were supose to look like.They were not bred for looks nor did anyone try to breed to the standard,They bred for gameness.No one cared what they looked like as long as they could hold their own in the pit.
So to say UKC ,AKC or ADBA are they way they are supose to look it totally
wrong.Go back and look at old pictures,some dogs are almost as big as American Bull dogs and some are as small as Bostons.
And I have yet to find anyone breeding APBT to a standard,they are all lacking in structure and no one seems to notice or care.Sure you don't need to be structurly sound to fight,but these dogs are weight pulling and lacking in a big area.They are doing what is asked,but just think if they met the standard what they could do.
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Here are some dogs that we own or are training.none meet the standard,but all will be UKC CH ,and some are working on the Grands.
Bobber and Vici
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v686/rutylr/Bobber/BobberVici.jpg
Jane,just finished her CH
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v686/rutylr/Bobber/krohnsmokinmj6mo.jpg
Red taking a Group I on the way to her CH at a little over 7 months
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v686/rutylr/Bobber/RedGroupIA.jpg
Moose Ch and BIMBS at 8 months with 3 legs towards his grand
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v686/rutylr/Bobber/MooseBIMBSII.jpg
all have the same structurl fault.
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UKC, ADBA are wrong??(AKC doesnt recognize the breed, but we wont go there!!)
Not hardly. Theye were bred for "looks" so to speak, because a big fat thick pitbull wouldnt last so many rounds fighting in a pit.
Come on , think about it.
Im not even wasting my typing energy on that reply!
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Your dogs are not fat, nor thick, they are nice, however I beleive if put up against a Jeep standard dog in the ring all those times while competing for the CH, would not have their CH.
They are pretty dogs, my Dixie resembles your dogs builds. She has what it takes to be a CH as well.
I like your dogs, and mine, better then the "game" line, however, your dog and mine is not a winner compared, by the correct judge, and in comparison as to what you are up against.
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Never said they are wrong,
said no one is breeding them to the standard.AKC is AST which are APBT's also.I have read and talked to breeders for years.So if you read the Colby book you can clearly see that he does not breed a dog to a standard.Back in the day it was what would win in the pit (now it's breed to wants winning in the ring,which is not always correct)
I would never compeet in ADBA because my dogs don't fit their standard,they are UKC APBT,AST.
I like my dogs lean not boney.As I do sleep with them.
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THE IDEA OF THE LEAN, MUSCULAR PIT WAS bred for dighting purposes, what Colby book are you reading??Because my book shows a typical game dog as Colbys original line, the original line that the UKC was founded on.
We are talking APBT, not AST, THERE IS A DIFFERENCE.
The lean dog would out perform in the pit.
Why am I arguing??Whatever...
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AKC and ADBA were founded on these same lines.
Here are some pictures from the book I have,while his dogs were lean(chain weight)they were not thin.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v686/rutylr/Bobber/oldpic.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v686/rutylr/Bobber/oldpics.jpg
I'm not arguing,Just stating what I have seen.and there is in alot of cases no difference from UKC,APBT and AKC AST as they are the same dog just different registerys.
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UKC,APBT and AKC AST as they are the same dog just different registerys.
So who wants to join me in popcorn and a beer?
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RD- Agreed, those dogs definitely have quite a bit of fat on them.
rutlyr Glad to see you've done some research :D LOL
It's al personal preference. As you can see some say skinny is the breed standard and obiously chunkier pitts are winning in the confirmation ring...
There's nothing wrong with having a nicely toned and muscled dog but my point is for a 7 month old that is WAY too much.
As for pitts in general, it makes more sense in a dog fighting sense that you'd want a bit of fat, it would last longer in the pitt.
What's crazy about the above pics, is that last dog looks hard as a rock yet he is VERY thick. I doubt he has much fat on him, but he's not as lean as many of the "new age" pitts. (happens to every species QH started out big, muscly, bulky animals and now are more comparable to THB)
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rutylr, those are some beautiful dogs. red especially. my preference is for the more game-bred looking dogs, but a beautiful dog is a beautiful dog.
We are talking APBT, not AST, THERE IS A DIFFERENCE.
*evil grin* is there? in my book, if you take apbt x apbt you get a bunch of baby apbts, no matter what the politics of the breed registry dictate you call 'em. and as the amstaffs of this world all began their days as ukc-registered pit bulls, i think they're still pit bulls.
i personally can't tell the difference between most ukc pit bulls and akc amstaffs. that and you can dual register 'em if they've got the right pedigrees, so where does that put us?
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I have always loved the breed,I've been showing Rottweilers since 1990 and started showing UKC in 1992,that is when I first started to really get to know them and have always wanted one(now we have 5 here).
Been studying the breed for years and still find more people breeding and owning who know nothing of structure or what their Standard say,and how far from the standard these dogs fall.
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Pit looks aside... the breeder the OP posted is groooooss! Read this, and tell me this person is well-educated and in it to better the breed:
"Even though our foundation dogs have numerous "champions" in their pedigrees, we don't participate in the show ring as we find it to be too politically subjective and therefore the term "champion bloodlines" over-used, overblown and over-rated. For all intents and purposes, show ring champions are nothing but beauty queens. The fact is that approximately 90% of the dogs out there meet the "standard" and it is not unusual to encounter dogs over 65 pounds (out of standard) entered. Why have a "standard" if it's not "standardized" ? "
Basically, he feels that he has the credentials to judge what dogs are worth breeding and what dogs aren't. Apparently, he knows everything about anything! If he is not showing his dogs, their worthiness of breeding is based solely on what he thinks, his opinion. So he's basically taking it into his own hands... without considering showing, working, or even testing his dogs. It is CRAP to blame one's laziness on the ethics of conformation shows. There are plenty of clubs, such as ADBA, who judge a lot fairer than AKC shows (in reference to Amstaffs). He either cannot get points on his dogs, or he knows nothing/is too lazy to get out there and exhibit them.
"They come with a certificate of health and their HEALTH is GUARANTEED* for 6 months from date of purchase."
Meaning, if your pup develops a hereditary disease at 1 year old, youre on your own! =P No health tests = a very high likelihood that your puppy will end up with hip or elbow issues that could cost you $1000's or even your dog's life at a young age. NOT WORTH IT! They also do not have a spay/neuter or return contract, so they are obviously not concerned with where their puppies end up.
"TO BE SOLD AS A BREEDABLE PAIR. WHEN THEY WERE BRED, THEY PRODUCED BLACK, BLUE AND CHAMPAGNE. THE LITTER WAS LOST TO PNEUMONIA."
They are selling a breeding pair, on their website. Period. They lost a litter to pneumonia! This does not happen, especially not a full litter, in a clean, in-home, well-operated breeding program! The puppy pictures show wormy, thin, dirty puppies who live outside with multiple other dogs in pens.
I see loads of dogs that look just like his, that have great personalities, languishing in shelters everywhere. If you are willing to buy from a breeder with such poor morals, you will be taking less of a chance if you adopt an adult dog from a rescue. Why do you even need to buy a Pittie if you're buying from a crappy breeder and you only want the pup as a pet? Are you not aware that the majority of dogs abandoned in most areas are Pit Bulls? Unless you want to show or work the dog, or you need a puppy for some particular reason, save a life if you really love this breed.
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Pit looks aside... the breeder the OP posted is groooooss! Read this, and tell me this person is well-educated and in it to better the breed:
"Even though our foundation dogs have numerous "champions" in their pedigrees, we don't participate in the show ring as we find it to be too politically subjective and therefore the term "champion bloodlines" over-used, overblown and over-rated. For all intents and purposes, show ring champions are nothing but beauty queens. The fact is that approximately 90% of the dogs out there meet the "standard" and it is not unusual to encounter dogs over 65 pounds (out of standard) entered. Why have a "standard" if it's not "standardized" ? "
Basically, he feels that he has the credentials to judge what dogs are worth breeding and what dogs aren't. Apparently, he knows everything about anything! If he is not showing his dogs, their worthiness of breeding is based solely on what he thinks, his opinion. So he's basically taking it into his own hands... without considering showing, working, or even testing his dogs. It is CRAP to blame one's laziness on the ethics of conformation shows. There are plenty of clubs, such as ADBA, who judge a lot fairer than AKC shows (in reference to Amstaffs). He either cannot get points on his dogs, or he knows nothing/is too lazy to get out there and exhibit them.
"They come with a certificate of health and their HEALTH is GUARANTEED* for 6 months from date of purchase."
Meaning, if your pup develops a hereditary disease at 1 year old, youre on your own! =P No health tests = a very high likelihood that your puppy will end up with hip or elbow issues that could cost you $1000's or even your dog's life at a young age. NOT WORTH IT! They also do not have a spay/neuter or return contract, so they are obviously not concerned with where their puppies end up.
"TO BE SOLD AS A BREEDABLE PAIR. WHEN THEY WERE BRED, THEY PRODUCED BLACK, BLUE AND CHAMPAGNE. THE LITTER WAS LOST TO PNEUMONIA."
They are selling a breeding pair, on their website. Period. They lost a litter to pneumonia! This does not happen, especially not a full litter, in a clean, in-home, well-operated breeding program! The puppy pictures show wormy, thin, dirty puppies who live outside with multiple other dogs in pens.
I see loads of dogs that look just like his, that have great personalities, languishing in shelters everywhere. If you are willing to buy from a breeder with such poor morals, you will be taking less of a chance if you adopt an adult dog from a rescue. Why do you even need to buy a Pittie if you're buying from a crappy breeder and you only want the pup as a pet? Are you not aware that the majority of dogs abandoned in most areas are Pit Bulls? Unless you want to show or work the dog, or you need a puppy for some particular reason, save a life if you really love this breed.
I have to agree that he sounds like a byb...
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RD- Agreed, those dogs definitely have quite a bit of fat on them.
rutlyr Glad to see you've done some research :D LOL
It's al personal preference. As you can see some say skinny is the breed standard and obiously chunkier pitts are winning in the confirmation ring...
There's nothing wrong with having a nicely toned and muscled dog but my point is for a 7 month old that is WAY too much.
As for pitts in general, it makes more sense in a dog fighting sense that you'd want a bit of fat, it would last longer in the pitt.
What's crazy about the above pics, is that last dog looks hard as a rock yet he is VERY thick. I doubt he has much fat on him, but he's not as lean as many of the "new age" pitts. (happens to every species QH started out big, muscly, bulky animals and now are more comparable to THB)
Fat pits are winning because the majority of pits now days have extra fat. People are obsessed with big, fat, chunky dogs. It goes for other breeds also... labs, rotties, GSDs, etc. In america... bigger is better. People dont condition their pits as much as they should. Its more about looks than about what the dog can do.
That 7 month old female I posted was not too skinny. HER RIBS WERE COMPLETELY HIDDEN, which means that she has a layer of fat. People need to go read the standard.
A fat pit would last longer in the pit? I dont think so. The more fat they have, the slower they are. The pits that have more lean muscle, and edurance would win. A fat pit would have very little endurance, because they obviousy havent been conditioned as much as a thinner pit. They would also over-heat faster.
A pit who is as hard as a rock has visible ribs. A pit that has hidden ribs has a layer of fat, which slows them down.
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The dogs I have seen in the CH and GRCH classes in UKC shows are not fat,just a bit more bulkier.There is a big difference between ADBA standard and UKC standard.
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It wholey depends on the judge as well. You have your old school judges and more lenient ones.
But seriously, I have attended many of dog shows for my breed, and the ONLY time I see the bulkier ones winning is if that is the only type entered.
Thats why I say, if there is a class of RE for example all entering, and all of a sudden a Jeep or Red Boy show up, with ribs and a tuck from he77, you can bet almost every time, the RE is going to lose.
To each his own preference, really people, but when compared in a ring~FOR REAL~ this is 99% time the outcome. No matter old school judges or new ones.
And I HATE discussing dog fighting, but yes, a bulkier pitbull is gonna get his a$$ whooped everyt ime due to the bulkiness, it causes loss of endurance, over heating and restricts limber movements.
Even alittle fat would cause this.
Im gonna try to find the Colby link where he quotes the ups and downs on the pitbull and the pitbulls that he bred/raised/looked up and down upon. It lists how many fights they won, why, why the other lost, etc. What he bred them to look like, what satisfied his likings, what didn't. Etc.....
I just hate being reminded what the breed was for, and I hate dogmen. This is why I usually dont go there.
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I don't mean "fat" as in sloppy looking, jiggly fat, but bulkier muscle, not quite as defined or toned.
The last pic of the Colby's the rutylr posted, is a very thick dog. But, it looks hard as a rock.
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Hunched like a whippet????Lol, far from it.
Please read the standard, obviously, you are seeing something completly different then what is there. Not sure if it is just because you do not know what to look for, or because I sense a hint of dislike from you for the breed. I may be wrong(probably~so dont go screaming at me!) but the dog is gorgeous, no obvious faults what so ever!
I see what I see, and I am entitled to voice my opinions. BTW, I love ABPT's. I had 4 growing up, and I am working on getting one in a few years, I am researching so that I can find a pits that I like and how I feel a pit should be, both looks and temperament wise.
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Hi,to go back to this what APBT's were supose to look like.They were not bred for looks nor did anyone try to breed to the standard,They bred for gameness.No one cared what they looked like as long as they could hold their own in the pit.
So to say UKC ,AKC or ADBA are they way they are supose to look it totally
wrong.Go back and look at old pictures,some dogs are almost as big as American Bull dogs and some are as small as Bostons.
And I have yet to find anyone breeding APBT to a standard,they are all lacking in structure and no one seems to notice or care.Sure you don't need to be structurly sound to fight,but these dogs are weight pulling and lacking in a big area.They are doing what is asked,but just think if they met the standard what they could do.
I love you, lol. That is so true. No one gave a rat's a*s about the dog's looks. All they cared about was fighting. My GSD was not bred for looks, but guess what? He has wonderful working abilities, and that is what I care about, not who's winning in the d*mn conformation ring.
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I think people are more sensitive about the shape of the pitbull nowadays because there are many lines that add a bit a mastiff to beef up the line a bit. That's a terrible injustice to the breed. I can see why some people like the bulkier pit, but I truly hope that we don't loose the lean lines. That why I personally think we should make a split that way everyone is happy. Amstaffs could represent the bulkier type pits and APBT could represent the leaner pits. An official split where a dog cannot be registered as both. I really think that's the best way to make eveyone happy and allow both types to be shown without risking the prejudice of a judge against a specific body type. Of couse I'm no expert or anything, it's just an idea.:)
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I love you, lol. That is so true. No one gave a rat's a*s about the dog's looks. All they cared about was fighting. My GSD was not bred for looks, but guess what? He has wonderful working abilities, and that is what I care about, not who's winning in the d*mn conformation ring.
You might not care what a dog looks like, but there is a little thing called a breed standard. There IS a certain way each breed is supposed to look.
I can tell that you have never even looked at the pit bull standard, let alone read it. You might think that female has a whippet back, but sorry to break it to ya... that is clearly how a pits back is supposed to look like. It states that in the standard.
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Here is an EXCELENT site with tons of pics to show you what a proper pit looks like... http://www.apbtconformation.com/head.htm
Standard Comparsions... http://www.apbtconformation.com/standardcomparison.htm
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No one looks at the standard when breeding.
Read the part on shoulders in the UKC standard and look at all the pictures you can,and try ti find 1 with the correct shoulders.
http://www.apbtconformation.com/frontstudy3.htm
the fronts are starting to look like Fox Terriers which is wrong.
I left it as one as that will be hard enuff.I have yet to see one in person with the correct shoulders.
So again no one is reading the standard.
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No one looks at the standard when breeding.
No one? I doubt that. There are people breeding towards the standard... The other breeders are starting to look bad to me, not breeding toward the stardard. A lot of the pits around here are starting to look more and more like American Bulldogs to me... it's all about size and intimidation... :confused:
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I love you, lol. That is so true. No one gave a rat's a*s about the dog's looks. All they cared about was fighting. My GSD was not bred for looks, but guess what? He has wonderful working abilities, and that is what I care about, not who's winning in the d*mn conformation ring.
they also cared about engineering the "perfect" fighting dog. and form follows function. if a dog with certain structure did better in the pit, for sure people would look to that dog's conformation and try to follow it. pit bulls, like all breeds created for a certain purpose, have the structure that they do for a reason.
a dog with weak structure, shallow chest for example, bowed front legs, straight hind end, whatever is not going to do as well in the pit. that's just the way it is.
structure and conformation is extremely important in a working breed. what good is a dog with excellent working ability and temperament and heart if his body breaks down or can't support his spirit?
conformation is so much more than "looking pretty."
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structure and conformation is extremely important in a working breed. what good is a dog with excellent working ability and temperament and heart if his body breaks down or can't support his spirit?
conformation is so much more than "looking pretty."
Tell that to the American Show bred GSD's. Yeah, they can work better than a german working line GSD because their knees drag the ground. :rolleyes:
If you look into GSD's you would see that poeple who work their dogs from working lines do not care for looks. I'm glad they dont breed to AKC conformation. A breed standard should be for an ENTIRE breed, then why are so many breeds divided? Explain that. Look at huskies, GSD's, Rotties, Dobies, Mals ect. They are ALL divided and have MANY breed standards, that fit that certain line they were bred into. Standards have changed immensly from breed to breed. Look at the first dog for each breed and then look at an example from this day and age. Then compare those to other dogs of the same breed used for a different purpose. And keep going, and you would notice a BIG difference. People focus WAY too much on looks rather than working ability. And unfortunately if I stick to "standard" then my dogs will not be able to work, because the structure is TERRIBLE. I would take a mutt who can work over a working breed bred for conformation and shows NO working ability what-so-ever.
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When I look at this picture I see APBT written all over it. Yes, she is on the bulky side but is not exxagerated, like most pits today. She, IMO, is very well balanced.
http://www.matrixkennels.com/emma.htm
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When I look at this picture I see APBT written all over it. Yes, she is on the bulky side but is not exxagerated, like most pits today. She, IMO, is very well balanced.
http://www.matrixkennels.com/emma.htm
She is a very nice pit bull. She is not conditioned as much as some other dogs on that site. I get a feeling that you like pits who are not conditioned. You dont like seeing ribs and an amazing tuck, but thats ok because the pit you picked out conforms to the standard very well.
There are people who like a well conditioned dog, and then theres people who think it looks anorexic.
Standard:
The loin is short, muscular and slightly arched to the top of the croup, but narrower than the rib cage and with a moderate tuck-up (TUCK UP IS VERY IMPORTANT IN AN ATHLETIC DOG AND THE DEGREE OF TUCK IS INDICATIVE OF THE LEVEL OF CONDITIONING.) The croup is slightly sloping downward.
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She is a very nice pit bull. She is not conditioned as much as some other dogs on that site. I get a feeling that you like pits who are not conditioned. You dont like seeing ribs and an amazing tuck, but thats ok because the pit you picked out conforms to the standard very well.
There are people who like a well conditioned dog, and then theres people who think it looks anorexic.
Standard:
The loin is short, muscular and slightly arched to the top of the croup, but narrower than the rib cage and with a moderate tuck-up (TUCK UP IS VERY IMPORTANT IN AN ATHLETIC DOG AND THE DEGREE OF TUCK IS INDICATIVE OF THE LEVEL OF CONDITIONING.) The croup is slightly sloping downward.
Rottie, I apreciate you for not bashing me for my likings. I'm glad that someone on here respects others opinions. I personally do not like overly "conditioned" pits. I prefer the ones that look like the one in the picture I posted, maybe a little less bulky but I prefer that look in comparison to the one you posted. Way to skinny for me. I like a nice tuck but not so much to where it looks like a greyhound or Whippet, again that is how I see it.
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Rottie, I apreciate you for not bashing me for my likings. I'm glad that someone on here respects others opinions. I personally do not like overly "conditioned" pits. I prefer the ones that look like the one in the picture I posted, maybe a little less bulky but I prefer that look in comparison to the one you posted. Way to skinny for me. I like a nice tuck but not so much to where it looks like a greyhound or Whippet, again that is how I see it.
I am glad you like pits that comform to the standard, its great! Different people have different tastes, and thats ok as long as the pit is a good representation of the breed. I just happen to like extremely conditioned dogs, and you dont, which is perfectly fine!
The dog I posted conforms to the standard... the one you posted conforms to the standard just as much.
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Matrix Kennels has quite a nice reputation...I also like this kennel and have spoken to the owner a few times...they're amstaffs...anywho, breeds apbts as well if I do recall...to me, they're the same diff...anyways, a very solid and reputable breeder:
http://www.hartagold.com/
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